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[hpraremod]

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Discussion Question #10
Who do you feel would have changed due to the events of the war and how? The Malfoys? Harry? McGonagall? Discuss whatever character you like.

Comments

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

I think everybody involved would change. There's just no way someone goes into a war like that and comes out with all their sanity in tact, despite the pretty picture JKR tried to paint in the epilogue.

Sometimes, I wonder how much the adults we saw were involved in the first war. None of them seemed freaked out enough about Voldemort's return. I'm hoping that it's just because we see everything from Harry's eyes and, obviously, they didn't want Harry to freak out (and thus they were calmer around him).

welll....

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

the epilogue happened 19 years later. so like there's no evidence that people didn't had a hard time adjusting. if anything, Rowling cheated by skipping ahead in time, not by making a happy epilogue.

I once visited a museum where one of the guides was son of a holocaust survivor- and from the anecdotes his father adjusted fine. slowly, and not completely- but fine in the end.

(and I know it's hp is fiction- i try to think of examples parallel to real world and World War seems fitting)

Re: welll....

[freakingcrups.livejournal.com]

Oh they would have adjusted fine, but many would have changed too. You can't go through that and not change, even a little. For example, Draco nodding at Harry, that's change. In Hogwarts, Draco would never have acknowledged Harry like that.

Re: welll....

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

well of course, like I didn't meant they didn't changed but the part " There's just no way someone goes into a war like that and comes out with all their sanity in tact, despite the pretty picture JKR tried to paint in the epilogue." of the argument

what like, my argument was that going through a War doesn't mean that all involved end like total basket cases that are forever and ever broken and damaged and can't lead like- relatively normal lives. (and i give an IRL example of someone's son that said his dad was pretty normal despite everything- even if sometimes he withdraw into himself and stuff)

that's what I was arguing against, not that the characters didn't changed

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean all of them would be a basket case. My dad went through war and he isn't a basket case... but he isn't exactly how he would have been had he NOT gone through that.

The "sometimes withdrawing into himself" is completely what I was talking about. This generation of Hogwarts students (Trio Era) will have moments like that and memories that their children don't understand. There might even be a time when parents can't relate to their children because their past experience is WAR and not normal-school stuff.

Most of my irritation with JKR's pretty picture is George Weasley. That boy would have died within the year of his twin's death. You don't have brothers THAT close and have one die and the other just move on. I live with identical twins, my very own Fred and George, and they were livid and upset when they found out one twin died and the other went on to marry and have children. They can't see themselves without their other half and they ever said that if they were in that same situation, there would have been a suicide - most likely after the funeral.

*/twin rant*

Having one be a psych major -whose main focus is war vets- that lets me borrow her textbooks gives me some really epic situations to look at. After I read Deathly Hallows, I immediately did some research to see how accurate JKR's epilogue could be. Yes, sure, some of it is pretty fine and dandy. You have a lot of people there not on the front lines ... and you have a lot of parents that try their best to act normal in front of the children. I'm pretty sure that it's hard for Harry to step onto that platform right now -- that's where he went when he died. You don't get over something like that. It sticks with you. But, he went there for his children and, thus, that's the "pretty picture" we see.

(I admit, I just want some after-war angst that JKR would never put in her books because it's not kid-friendly enough.)

[blossomdreams.livejournal.com]

I think everyone has changed and as they grow up those changes can be seen in subtle things. Such as Luna disappearing in her head if anyone asks her about the war, George (since we're following canon), not coming out when April 1 rolls around, Harry becoming quickly irritating if his family don't act like the perfect family he envisioned, Hermione researching something when the topic of war comes up in the office, Ron listening to Qudditch for the same thing, Neville staying in the greenhouse if he has a nightmare, and I could go on, but I think that they all changed during the war, but as they grew older those changes are subtly seen in the things they do.

I can totally see that except...

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

"Harry becoming quickly irritating if his family don't act like the perfect family he envisioned"

well for one I never saw Harry as really outwardly wishing for a family- not that he didn't but his seemed more like "if I had a different life what if--- but No, I'm marked by voldemort so I'm probably going to die in the process so better not get my hopes up"

i mean we never ever hear anything of harry thinking "he could see himself comming home and teaching his daughter quidditch.."

as for harry getting irritated if he doesnt have a "perfect family" he lived with the dursleys for 11 years and that family was far from perfect and he fared relatively well as a person making friends and forming bonds.
I really can't picture harry at all wanting a perfect, flawless happy happy family-

A happy family/relatively normal family--Yes. Stepford Family carbon cutout no hair out of place family- NO.

i mean his experience with the dursleys was bad enough, i doubt he would act like them in raising a family.

I totally see him clamming up every so often and maybe isolating himself to the whole-heartily apologize and make amends- but that's different.

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

well for one I never saw Harry as really outwardly wishing for a family

Really? Not even when he was staring at his photo album? Or wishing he could stay at the Weasleys and be part of their family?

Not trying to sound rude, I'm just curious to how you interpreted those scenes.

Also, children (subconsciously) learn from their elders on how to treat people. Harry may seem like a nice, polite boy because he was trying not to be like the Dursleys, but then we see that Vernon and Petunia kind of demand politeness from him. It's a psychological mind fuck, really. So it is very, very possible (almost a given) that Harry would act like the Dursleys even if he's not even aware that he's doing so. We all grow up to be our parents, after all, and his "parents" (aka the people who raised him) weren't that kind.

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

sorry- I meant him wishing for a family of his own making. meaning him getting married and having kids

I should have made that clearer. (cause duh, of course he wanted a family to Belong! the dursleys were horrible)

I'm not saying Harry would be perfect little dad- he probably would have his moments of depression.

But I doubt he would demand perfection from his kids/wife since he himself is not perfect, and he knows it.

I mean ron and hermione are not perfect and while harry sometimes got annoyed with them- he didn't asked the to change.

in fact- when he went to hogwarts he had two choices- seen as "perfect" people like draco malfoy- or misfits like Hagrid, the Weasleys,etc

whom did he stuck with? the misfits. did he ask them to change or fit an idea? no.

ALSO there were a few cases of people who were Nice to him while at the dursleys (ex. Mrs. Figgs the squib neighbor) or teachers,

and sorry but I completely disagree with that 100% of the time we end like the people who raise us- I think that not all of us are predestined to be carbon copies of our parents- and are capable to change.

some maybe, but we haven't seen Harry act like the dursleys much, act grumpy and martyr and hermit like-yeah- but that's because of negligence and emotional abuse from the dursleys.

plus, yeah he spent 11 years with the dursleys but the next 6-7 he got surrounded by good, decent people and i'm sure that can have a huge impact on him as well.

like, bottom line- i dont see harry treating his family like that at all and there is no evidence he would

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

He might not have asked them to change, but he did throw some nice hissy fits. :)

Honestly, harry stuck with Ron because Ron was the FIRST person to reach out to him as a friend. I'm pretty sure JKR even acknowledged that somewhere -- I remember reading it. The misfits were the first people to reach out to him and, sorry, but I see why he sticks with them. However, if Draco had reached out to him in the robe shop instead of shunning Hagrid, well, we could have seen a different Harry (and I think that's really awesome to explore).

I never said that 100% of the time you turn out like the people who raised you. I said that it happens most of the time -- just look around. Yes, everyone is capable of change, but we're also very, very comfortable with keeping pace, sometimes. It's easy to be like those who raised you and not even realize it. Thus the joke of "oh god, I'm turning into my mother."

I can name quite a few people that weren't good or decent in the wizarding world. :) So he wasn't completely surrounded by good people -- and he did turn out like his cousin in some regard. ESPECIALLY when it came to Draco. Harry was a bully at various points in his Hogwarts life.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. There is plenty of evidence here that can be put to either argument. I do see some of what you're saying, but I also see my side and (since it's my side), it just happens to be stronger, lol.

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

hissy fits= martyr complex

and i didn't meant all people he met were decent people. but most of the weasleys were, lupin was, tonks, was, neville and most of the gryffindors, mcogonagall.

also harry fought against the "norm" a lot. he didn't wanted to be a spotlight hogger, arrogant celebrity like lockhart, he didn't want to be like slytherin in second year when everyone thought him the heir. he didn't wanted to be the poster boy for the ministry or be treated like a mental case.

and yeah Harry acted bully-ish a lot. but A. so did Draco, and B. i'm not talking early school years- i'm talking end of the war. and while he didn't became besties with malfoy *thank god* he forgave him'

Heck He even forgave snape whom he LOATHED for 6 years. he even told Voldemort the one who wanted to murder him and everyone he cared about, that he could turn his life around if he repented and felt true remorse.

that doesn't seem like someone who would be hard on his kids.

(i wasn't going to answer but saying your side is because it's your side it's stronger when Neither of Us is the be all end all of canon (rowling is the only one who knows how harry would treat his kids) was condescending)

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

Okay, stopping right here. I want you to go back and reread what I said. "I also see my side and (since it's my side), it just happens to be stronger, lol." I'm seeing my side as stronger because it's my side. I never said it was stronger to anybody else but me -- just like your side will always come out stronger for you. Rude, arrogant, or condescending was not how I ever intended to come across.

[hpraremod]

Okay this is where I step in. Conversation and discussions are lovely to discuss, however each person has their own side and views of such topics like such. As you said, the only one who truly knows is JK, however as she will never comment on this, it's up to our own interpretations. We asked for your opinions and that's what we got, we understand that, but we would rather this doesn't turn into arguments.

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

alright, i'm sorry. :(

I shouldn't have started bickering.

harry is my second favorite character and i didn't liked the insinuation that he would be a a bad perfect expectations on his kids.

but i'll play nice from no on, promise. I dont want to get in trouble

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

I do apologize as well -- I never intend any discussion I'm in to turn into an argument. <3

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

McGonagall-- well she did lived through the first War- so I don't see her changing too much. some yes, but not a lot.

the malfoys definitely- at the end of the War they been pushed and pulled by Voldemort- and Lucius IS considered a DE. so while I dont see them getting shipped for azkaban for life- I see them becoming a wee bit more humble and less respected/revered/listened to.

(Like I doubt lucius could or have the many to pay off anyone anymore-- or that anyone would take a bribe ever again)

Harry I see him changing in two different ways- I do see him suffering guilt issues on who died, what he could have done differently to save more people, maybe occasional but not life-ruining PTSD...

but I also see him slowly being more hopeful and happy- Definitely dealing with people better- with their emotions and what they need. (no more of this getting awkard while people cry stuff and standing ten feet away from them)

cause like I mean, fighting voldemort he probably didn't thought he would make it out alive and be able to have a future. So i kind of really seeing him enjoying life and freedom and friends and family as much as he can- and make a better future.

Another characters I see positive change post War are Neville and Hermione.

Neville in being more confident and sure of himself, while remaining humble and open. definitely wanting to be taken more seriously but not the the obnoxious cocky "i cut voldemort's snape head off and stood my ground as a rebellion leader against DE for a whole year Now Give Me the JoB!!!" but more like "look I know what I'm doing, trust me and let me do this, alright?"

Also like- I'm probably the ONLY person that probably feels this but---- Hermione getting closer and more involved in spending times with her parents, and them getting closer as a family.

I Hate the fandom notion that her parents will hate her forever, or get divorced or hermione loosing ties with them in total favor of the weasley after the War . *oh how i hateee itttt >I:( *

I feel that Knowing that her parents could have died, or that She could have died and her parents would Never ever remember her, would be a huge incentive for Hermione to change things and stop taking her parents for granted and be more involved with them, and try to introduce them more to the wizard world,etc

maybe cause I'm optimistic and because I read loads of biographies of survivors who pulled through and had good, relatively normal happy lives post- war survival. :)

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

"i cut voldemort's snape head off and stood my ground as a rebellion leader against DE for a whole year Now Give Me the JoB!!!"

haha, I kind of want to see a crack!fic where that happens, now...

Also, not everyone in fandom believes that Bad Stuff Will Happen with Hermione's parents. It's just a good plot device to use for fics, in my opinion. Drama = tension = good stories.

[nevrafire.livejournal.com]

;p

well like i'm not good writting crack fic but you can totally use the idea!

although like- i seen it floating around- someone asks neville to pass the salt or wash the dishes or something and he's all "i was a rebel lider! you do it!!"

and like, I don't really believe EVERYONE on fandom see hermione + parents after war = bad.

but like of 10 fics i read about post WAR (even from people who write pretty canon ron/hermione) 2 maybe 3 have hermione not have issues with her parents and have a good relationship. most is all DRAMA DRAMA HOW COULD YOU.

(like i'm not saying that the second hermione gave them their memories back it was all fine and dandy- I'm sure they would be a little hurt and angry- but i think they would understand in the end why hermione did it and they would all try to make amends and be a closer family)

instead of "you monster! you're not a daughter of ours anymore or "those wizards did this to you! they corrupted you! you are Not allowed to talk to wizard Ever again!"

urgh hate it.

[masteroftrouble.livejournal.com]

Again, Drama = tension = good stories. I'm sure there are plenty of stories out there with a Granger family the way you like it. :) You just have to find them.

[arenee1999]

Well, we saw how Harry changed. He never would have been able to walk calmly toward his death without having suffered the events that came before. He may have been willing to, to save everyone, but willing and able are two different things.

My head-canon has Lucius and Draco changing dramatically.

To some extent everyone that was touched by the war would have been changed by it. Especially the surviving members of the Order and Harry's friends. They suffered and lost so much...

[calm-tailor.livejournal.com]

I second the theory that Nevil, while he may not be a basket case, was just never quite the same timid and uncertain guy we see in the books after leading a rebellion. I get the feeling he would develop a quiet confidence and sense of peace knowing his parents tormentor was gone for good, a sort of presence of solidity.

I also think Colin would come out a radically different person after losing his brother and growing closer to new people as a rebel fighter. Him, I'm not so sure would normalize, given he was so hyper fanboy before the war and his mental stability was questionable at best. I think I once read a fic where he turned out to be the serial killer hunting down pure blood to avenge his fallen brother that felt very believable, and if I could remember the title I would recommend it.